Curse

lyra_song · Jul 31, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by merdle

On top of that, increasing the energy cost of the more effective ones to 10 would be useful. For a class that regains energy, an increase in energy cost is nothing. People think it's okay that their skills pretty much cost nothing? 5 nrg skill that removes an enchant, effectively giving 5 nrg + health?

My friend wanted to test the dervish against me, so we took out my warrior and ranger.

He had me hit him to about 40% health. Then he did 2 things: Vital Boon, then signet of Piety and he was back to full health.

Vital boon costs 5 energy. When he removed it with signet of piety, Vital boon gave him at least 135 health (i dont know the exact number because i dont know his rune setup, but 114 is at 12), signet of piety gave him at least 114 health, and then mysticism bonus of at least 6 energy (at 12 mysticism) and another 18 health.

thats at least 267 health for the cost of nothing o.O, in fact you gain energy!!

And you can do this every 8 seconds. x_x

I think the enchantments really should only take effect when the end "naturally", but maybe thats too much of a nerf?

Its like illusion of weakness right now, except much much more powerful.

GodHead · Jul 31, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

There have been a few suggestions for Mysticism to keep the energy gain, but lose the health gain, and I think this is backwards.

The Dervish should keep the health gain, but lose the energy gain. The class already has 4 energy pips, and we already have classes where the primary attribute is essentially "Have more energy" (Elementalist = have more energy, Ranger = use less energy, Necromancer = get energy when things die, Assassin = get energy on critical hit, Paragon = get energy for using shouts).

Without the energy gain from losing the enchants they'd have to be a little more careful with them, wouldn't be able to spam through them like mad, but would still be able to pop them for extra health they wouldn't otherwise have.

Enough with the energy management primary attributes. They're different and make for different playing styles, we know energy is important, we get it. But do something different.

Lets Get to Healing · Jul 31, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

ChAnGiNg DeRvIsH EnChAnTmEnTs WiLl ScReW MySt.

Mighty Hero · Jul 31, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

for whatever reasons, I have not seen alot of threads focusing on paragon except alot of threads are firing at dervish. They are still at beta testing stage. Definitely Dervish and paragon need a few minor modifications.

I wonder why paragon's armor has 80 def with 10 ele def and 10 fire or cold def, and dervish armor got only 70 def. Paragon is a backline supporter for sake. it is capable of dealing alot of damages, healing others and dealing conditions. Why paragon needs 80 def anyway? Monk is a backline supporter also. Does that mean monk's armor need to be 80 defense with 10 ele def too?

Dervish works wonderfully in number similar to smiting monks, but with or without an avartar skill and with 70 def armor, Dervish alone would be like an assassin (useless profession). It will get interrupted while trying to use a skill. Eventually, Dervish would be a sitting duck during recharge time. It can't tank like warrior can. Dervish's def armor should be at least 80 plus 10 ele def and 10 fire def or 10 cold def since dervish will be the frontliner up against monsters and any things.

Raxxman · Jul 31, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

umm no.....

Dervishes have massive self heals, and do massive area effect dammage. And you want more armour for him?

paragons may be backline supporters at times, but they've also got frontline chants, where they need to get into the thick of things for the warrior to hear and benifit from. Paragon armour is fine, if they can do a little tanking then so be it.

Zhou Feng · Jul 31, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saix The Spartan

Looking aorun on the forums i see nothing but Derv's are WAY to Over powered and need to be nerfed so there more useless in PvE then Sins.

Some of the things that i have seen is: Make armor 60 Al, Make them attack slower, Make Enchanments spells take 2-3 seconds to cast (Now WTF), Get rid of them... And some others.

So instead of nerfing them to hell howabout we BALANCE them a little better. here are some of my thoughts.

I didn't think of this one but it's good: Name Derv Enchantments Something else so CoP doesn't affect them.

These are mine: Make the Damage Enchants (Like Balths Rage) Have to wait longer untill you get that after affect, something like 45 seconds.

Make The enchantments cost like an extra 5 Energy. A slightly higher recharge time like a extra 5 seconds...

I got to go now, i will post more once i'm back later. Post some of your own, that don't make them crap. Thank you, and PLEASE PLEASE Don't turn this into a flamefest..

Heres the problem. A class who can cast AoE damage, remove all enchants and cause side effects, heal itself and manage energy all at the same time. No class has ever had this advantage! Remove enchants? Why should they care if you do! That's what Dervs are all about. Mysticism should give health per rank and a fixed amount of energy dependant on rank like 1-5 instead of the actual form or health and energy up to a limit of popped enchants (for every 1-4 removed enchants you gain X health and Y energy)

Their enchants should have longer recharge or deal less damage.

Horseman Of War · Jul 31, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

it was one of the lamest experiences i had since i bought guild wars. i can't believe you guys (anet) created a whole character class that is only required to litteraly follow a target and MINDLESSLY spam its whole skillbar. i feel like a stupid robot playing, it doesn't show any kind of skill. running this build makes winning pointless as i can just let my grandma spam 1-2-3-4-5 1-2-3-4-5 and nobody would notice the difference.

thats exaggerating. i agree that dervs have a few balance issues, but then again I was pwning dervs ALL WEEKEND with backfire + SS... so maybe people just need to rethink their lame strats (which is a positive thing for a game like this... whats the skill of running a cookie cutter hoh build for 2 years straight... sounds boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allience

anet claims this game is about skill so what happened? first there's iway, then order of apostacy and now the mighty dervish... whoever came up with the dervish skills needs to be fired.

Thats an ignorant, immature comment. Whoever cant beat a dervish needs to be fired... A dervish is no match for the right kind of Mesmer, and never will be. GG.

Divineshadows · Aug 01, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseman Of War

thats exaggerating. i agree that dervs have a few balance issues, but then again I was pwning dervs ALL WEEKEND with backfire + SS... so maybe people just need to rethink their lame strats

Way to go on owning all the unskilled players that were playing a D/Mo. If you had actually run into one that had the slightest idea how to PvP, then you would have spent 30 energy on SS and backfire only to see that player do nothing until the next recharge on CoP (sometime within the next 10 seconds) for a mere 5 energy that gave the player back much more energy. You lose 30 energy, they gain energy and are free to enchantment rage your team again. Losing proposition if I've ever heard of one...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseman Of War

Thats an ignorant, immature comment. Whoever cant beat a dervish needs to be fired... A dervish is no match for the right kind of Mesmer, and never will be. GG.

Great, so you've got an experienced player on dom mesmer with gale, blackout and diversion. You can completely shut one D/Mo down in a 1-on-1 situation, but you will never kill him. Throw this player into a 4 man team setting for TA and come up against a team with 4 D/Mo. Now, you've got a D/Mo shutdown while the other 3 enchantment rage your team. I seriously hope you enjoy kiting....a lot...while crippled.

Better idea, bring 4 dom shutdown mesmers with ether feast to self heal and the plan of not actually ever killing anything and hoping your opposition just eventually ragequits. Just like watching paint dry. It's certainly better than your SS + backfire idea...

Denny Pace · Aug 01, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Well said, Divineshadows. Well said.

I'd like to add my opinion that CoP shouldn't be the thing that's nerfed. CoP in the current game is not a problem, and fits in well with the rest of the game. The Dervish itself is the problem with the massive self-heal and massive AoE damage. Anet has got to realize this, and restrict the corrective actions to the Dervish.

It's kind of funny. Take 7 D/Mo in with one Mo/Me this weekend, and you could austensibly win 85-90% of your GvG matches. Try that sometime with 7 W/Mo and one Mo/Me.

bunnys are ebil · Aug 01, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

redo mysticism so at max it is 5 or 6 energy

merdle · Aug 01, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

that wouldn't really do much. Most people only put enough into mysticism for 5 or 6 energy anyway.

LifeInfusion · Aug 01, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

-Make high damage skills do fire damage instead of holy
-Increase recharges (most recharges are insanely low, like 0-20 sec)

Khift · Aug 01, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Pace

Well said, Divineshadows. Well said.

I'd like to add my opinion that CoP shouldn't be the thing that's nerfed. CoP in the current game is not a problem, and fits in well with the rest of the game. The Dervish itself is the problem with the massive self-heal and massive AoE damage. Anet has got to realize this, and restrict the corrective actions to the Dervish.

It's kind of funny. Take 7 D/Mo in with one Mo/Me this weekend, and you could austensibly win 85-90% of your GvG matches. Try that sometime with 7 W/Mo and one Mo/Me.

CoP is a problem in the current metagame, just not quite so large. CoP is one of the lynchpins keeping boonprot dominant in the metagame -- it makes the boonprot monk extremely resilient to hate. It is very difficult to hate out a good monk with CoP, not impossible but difficult. Mesmers have worked around it, yes, but without it the boonprot would be even closer to the quality of other possible monk builds.

With Dervishes, though, CoP goes from keeping your defense impeccably clean to keeping your offense impeccably clean. When you're staring down 5-6 D/Mo's who you can't cripple, you can't SS, you can't blind or hex down, you'll come to agree that CoP is quite overpowered.

A class has to have counters. CoP not only keeps D/Mo's from being counterable it FEEDs their energy, allowing them to operate unhindered and to feed the fire of their offense. Quite simply it's gotta go.

Saider maul · Aug 01, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

the dervish as a scythe build is powerful and well rounded a bit powerful but not outragious.

The dervish/Monk aoe spikes was rediculous. Tward the end i saw some anties being made that got it where 3 could take you down before you healed and killed them but usually they ran and if not they died.

I propose these balancing options.

Mysticism: make 2 points of health per point if attribute and 1 energy gain per 3 points in attribute. making 32hp gain instead of 48hp and energy gain to 5max from 8. mysticism bonus should only pay out on enchantments you cast.
This will efectivly stop a monk acting as battery and cut the energy gain to close to half as well as reducing the healing considerably.

Make all the enchantment spikes 10-12 sec recharges.
reduce the healing from bathazars rage by 1/3.

I would prefer making the enchantment spikes a 50/50 aoe. ( half being aoe and half being single target )

I recomend making balthazar rage single target. Leaving wind spikes burst aoe will fit the dmg style of wind. Plus it lacks the defense capabilites of earth.

making scythe dmg a little lower and more consistant. ( IE 12-38 instead of 9-41 )

make all other ( strip all enchantment skills on self in all classes to 15sec minimum )

this should eliminate all massive enchantment spikes and not hurt the scythe dervish, healer dervish, to much leaving the enchanter about equil.

I ran a D/MO during the preview and well.... ty for the 250k kurzick faction in a day and a half. LMAO.

Love the class though cant wait.

paragon only need the spear spikes reduced slightly. Good leader class for PvP.

I think a skill/ attribute adjustment and second test is in order.

Hella Good · Aug 01, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Im going to wait patiently for ANet to take 15-20 damage off Balth Rage and Heart of Holy Flame and maybe, just maybe, add a sec or two on the recharge and for people to suddently start claiming that Dervishes have become obsolete. I'm more concerned with the rate at which RoF can feed Dervishes energy than CoP with its 10s recharge. Yes, Dervishway was broken during the event. But lets not overreact, it's just a beta. Be constructive and keep the drama aside.

LamerFlamer · Aug 01, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

I got three glad points this weekend, only did ra, a waste I know, I could've gotten a ton of fame. Only one of those games had a monk, one had three D/X's using aoe skills (I was the only D/Mo) and an me/n degener. We might've kept on going that game but the mesmer suddenly dropped out of nowhere, so we just quit.

I like the dervish, but it needs to be toned down a bit, like 5-15 damage points on holy damage, and a bit of a buff on non holy stuff...Call me crazy but those were pretty weak.

Death Syndrome · Aug 01, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Well i havent read all the posts here, but I used and really liked my dervish, I say maybe the nerf they can do is make a limit to how many can be in certain matches (hoh, ra, ta).

Spura · Aug 01, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

get 6 warriors around one, SS+Empathy+insidious parasite=GGKKIMANOOBTHXBAI

That's the dumbest things I have heard in a while.

On the side note CoP doesn't seem to be the problem as such. Remember that dervishes have their own CoP with 4 sec recharge, that removes 1 enchant and removes 1..3 hexes. Also signet of piety removes enchant, heals for 110+ and recharges instantly. What we need is recharges on those things and less powerful mysticism.

Raxxman · Aug 01, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

limiting the number of dervishes in a group only admits they're a broken class.

easyg · Aug 01, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Here's just one tiny example of what makes the dervish so horribly unbalanced:

Heart of Holy Flame. Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes take 40...88 holy damage. For 30 seconds, your attacks deal holy damage. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes are set on fire for 1...3 seconds.

Now compare this to Judge's Insight (a very powerful spell btw). Yeah, same energy cost (10) for both spells, but look how much better Heart of Holy Flame is in almost every respect:

1) Activation times of 3/4 instead of 2 for Judge's Insight
2) Recharge time of 8 instead of 10 for Judge's Insight
3) 30 sec duration regardless of skill points in Wind Prayers, vs. 8...20 for Judge's Insight (Smiting Prayer)
4) 40-88 AOE holy damage vs. no AOE for Judge's Insight
And to add insult to injury:
5) Foes set on fire for 1...3 seconds.

I mean, sheesh, why not make it resurrect all fallen allies too, while we're at it? If this skill is allowed to remain as is, I'm taking dervish as my secondary for all my warriors and rangers if only for the insane benefit of having 30 seconds of holy damage without any attribute points in wind prayers. Totally ridiculous.

Oh yeah, the dervish is fine hahaha....lmao.